Objective reality is independent of people

Or, at very least, when you’re engaging someone — you’re by definition now attempting to engage in something that is objective

Because if it’s subjective — then how can you meet on a shared understanding and shared plan?

If you think the ball must be put in a basket, and they think they ball must be put between the goalposts — of course you won’t agree, and of course you won’t both achieve your goals

 

Therefore we should always start with discussing ideas,

 

Indeed we should discuss ideas over facts

Because the facts business is messy

We have different facts, different observations,

Different misinformation

Ideas, at least, can be made logically sound, coherent

 

Of course ideally we’d immediately establish facts we agree on,

And never proceed if we disagree on fundamental facts — since then we can’t agree anyway,

Obviously f(x) = 2x gives different output depending on X

And once we agreed about the facts — then slowly build coherent system from it

 

But it’s not how unserious people operate

NOR is it always practical — since decisions have to be made EVEN if we are uncertain

 

So yes, in serious, practical matters — it really ultimately boils down to whose the fucking boss

If you can agree on pertinent facts — great.

If you can’t — someone has to make the decision anyway,

and then in stupid shit like your precious political views — maybe discussing ideas is the better way

 

…and what happens when you can neither agree on ideas nor on facts?

The sad truth is that nothing fucking happens

It’s over

You can’t convey to the blind man how colourful late Van Gogh was

Nor to the deaf man what Chopin’s piano sounded like

 

And the rational thing is at that point to face that truth,

Examine if you have any business together,

If you do, ask yourself if you can make them do your bidding irrespective of the fundamental disagreement (are you the boss)

And if you can’t, then there’s nothing more to talk about

You might as well talk to your dog

 

There is one last detail however,

There may STILL exist a pressing necessity to fully convey the gulf between the two of you

I said that ideas exist independently of people

But people don’t exist independently of ideas, do they?

They walk this earth and soak in lot of dumb and wise ideas

Therefore it DOES get personal, at the end

You STILL shouldn’t make it personal, if you can avoid it

If you can refine ideas — you both will become refined through them

But if you can’t — then pretending that person is completely independent of their stupid ideas — is of course way too charitable

 

Therefore,

once you have, extremely coolly, conveyed your beliefs

Gave fair justification for them,

Once you have, extremely coolly, criticised their beliefs,

Fairly and coherently,

Once you attempted to establish a common ground, go down the chain of reasoning to the point of divergence,

Once you have attempted it all,

You may now actually, extremely coolly REVEAL to them that you believe they are incapable of coming to ANY understanding with you…

 

…BECAUSE:

-they are indeed too stupid to coherently connect the dots, their math breaks up because they forget the result of previous operation before they have finished the next one

-they are too biased and emotional and religious to maintain a coherent, cold model of the world, without fluidly moulding it to fit what they want to believe

-they lack the most basic concepts, which are the prerequisite building blocks for more advanced ones

 

And then even more bluntly, you can instantiate those nasty personal generalisations:

-PROVE to them they are stupid, in naming examples of great stupidity, which doesn’t suggest great ability to comprehend complex problems

-PROVE to them how unwise they have been

-PROVE to them that they are fucking losers, and no one truly CHOOSES to be a loser, unless they are mad

-and that LOSERS of course have a weakness of intelligence or weakness of character (including biases and mental health) which in turn makes them also incapable of comprehending reality in any acceptable resolution

-and also humiliate their ignorance, in inundating them with concepts they have NEVER heard of, books they’ve not only never read but never heard of, names they heard yet know nothing about

+plain and simple, if nothing else, remind them of the stupid takes, stupid predictions, stupid decisions they have previously made.

this one should work even for very intelligent and knowledgeable people, that nevertheless act crazy time and time again… until you no longer can engage them seriously

 

This, of course, is quite disgusting

And this, of course, is no proof that someone is wrong

It’s merely STRONG SUGGESTION that they are more liable to getting this particular thing WRONG

And that’s why we only do this AFTER we engaged the ideas, the facts, the reasoning

And only if we really must

 

Now, of course, part of the bad reputation of this kind of personal attack is rooted in that we do this:

-unfairly

-emotionally

Therefore it tends to:

-distract from reason, rationality, ideas, facts

-and actually add to confusion and chaos — since it’s often not actually even true — just something we do to spite someone, in anger

-and indeed since it’s what we do in anger — it’s by definition not cool, but instead distorted by emotion

+even if it’s delivered with utmost honesty, cool and precision — the personal nature of it makes it difficult for most people to process, without themselves becoming emotional and irrational first

-and as such, it is often adverse to reaching common goals. It’s just bad diplomacy

 

But of course, just because consequences of saying something are negative — doesn’t mean that thing is not true

If we were ALWAYS fair, always said the truth — yes it would hurt more

But it would also hurt much less

Because there would be no unfair insulting of someone in anger, with pure desire to hurt them

There would only be the truth that hurts

 

Therefore no,

Insulting someone personally is not wrong per se

It’s just what you think about someone

And MAY want to convey, sometimes, rarely, VERY CAREFULLY

Because you can’t get anywhere trying to discuss ideas and facts and assumptions and reasoning

Nor are you the boss